the reagan administration branded the anc a terrorist group and dick cheney voted against a resolution to release nelson mandela. so this was all happening around the world. >> right. i think peter godwin's point that south africa's transition was facile traitated by the end the cold what are is extremely important but it's important to remember in the 1980s a lobl anti-apartheid movement arose during the cold war in which people in america said we're not going to see south africa in purely cold war terms. we're not going to sep reagan's pacic envision that the apartheid regime is on the part of the free world because it's anti-communist and the anc, they are on the side of unfreedom. i think the willingness to look at south africa beyond cold war terms when when the cold war was raging was critically important to the transition in south africa. >> when you talked with nelson mandela, did you find that he -- had he forgiven the west for, you know, having mostly for the most part sided against the anc? >> i think in my conversations with him, he forgave the west, and he realized there's